Razgovor:Idol (japanska pop kultura)

Tema članka

O čemu zapravo govori ovaj članak? --Igor Windsor (razgovor) 23:13, 23 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

Hi! Your profile says you speak English, and I can better explain in English. The article is about a segment of the Japanese entertainment (entertainment industry). There are performers of certain style that are called "idols". You can say being a idol is a profession, like being a singer or a dancer. But you can only be an idol when you are young. When idols grow up, they leave the idol industry (it's called "they graduate") and either return to being normal people (e.g. go to college to get a normal profession) or become singers and actors.
An "idol" is like a "starlet". It's like if a being a starlet would be a separate profession. A profession for young people.
Everything I say will be mainly about the Japanese music industry ("idol singers"). Being an idol is not considered to be a serious profession, it's like "I can sing and dance a little bit and I'm too cute for words".
For example, this pop group (Shiritsu Ebisu Chugaku) is actually marketed to have the image of a band of middleschoolers who can't really sing or dance (they actually can sing and dance, though): [1], [2].
Being an idol (idol singer) means they sing cute songs and are marketed in a certain way. They are targeted mainly to the fans of opposite sex and they are not allowed to have boyfriends/girlfriends. They must be cute and perfect. If they disbehave, they are excluded. (There have been some scandals like that. For example, a person can be banned from activites for a certain period of time for smoking.)
All idols have a fervent following (idol fans) who act in a certain crazy way. (It looks like if the fans would "worship" them.) At the concert, the fans do what is called "wotagei". You can say it's like cheerleading, they support their idols when they perform. They actually invent something like a chant (a sequence of shouts) for every song, so the concerts sound very impressive thanks to the fans' chants. Watch the videos: [3] (Momoiro Clover Z), [4] (Cute).
You can say being an idol fan is like a subculture. It's somewhat similar to being a metalhead. Only metal fans mosh at the concerts and idol fans do the wotagei.
There are many companies that specialize in idols or have a separate section for creating idols.
The other thing is that kids usually become idols through auditions. (So it's kind of similar to TV shows like "Americal idol". I'm not sure if the idea and the usage of the word "idol" in this context were stolen from the Japanese.)
so as I said, idols are a type of Japanese entertainers who are marketed as cute ordinary people who can sing and dance and model, but are not professional at either singing or dancing or modelling. They are ordinary "girls/boys next door". It's like an idea of an ordinary girl who is so cute and adorable that the whole Japan falls in love with her and everyone wants to marry her or be her boyfriend. (But she can't have a boyfriend cause if she does, people won't worship her anymore.)
I would like to explain all this in the article (starting with the English one), but it's too difficult... --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 11:09, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

@Igorwindsor: If you add a few sentences based on my explanation to the article, I will use them in other languages too. The English-language article doesn't properly explain anything too. (The English article should be rewritten, but I can't make myself do it. It's too hard, I would have to search for sources, and I don't own any books about idols or anything.) (But if you add a few sentences with a simple explanation here, it would help me to write a better definition in English too.) --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 11:48, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

So is this about a specific TV show in Japan? Or just about Japanese teenagers in general who want to be stars? If the latter is true, I am afraid this article may be a good candidate for deletion, at least in my opinion --Igor Windsor (razgovor) 15:07, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

The teenagers are already stars. The article is not about teenagers in general.
The article is about a specific type of artist that exists in Japan. Like, for example, there's an article about comedians ("komičar") in Wikipedia.
The article is also about a specific music genre because in the Japanese popular music idols form a specific music genre. Like, for example, there are articles about pop music, heavy metal music and rock music.
It can't be a candidate for deletion because the phenomenon is notable. There are many books about idols, even in English. Like, for example:

You can click on the links and look at the descriptions. They explain what idols are. And the books are available online on Google Books. --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 16:47, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

There are many idol TV shows and idol projects in Japan. The main projects are listed in the article already:

AKB48 and its sister groups (SKE48, NMB48, HKT48, JKT48, SNH48, etc.). If you look at the articles in the Japanese Wikipedia , they will all say these are "idol groups" cause these are a specific type of musical groups.
Hello! Project
3B Junior
Johnny & Associates
There are also many other idol projects. All major Japanese record labels have created idol groups cause they want to earn money on the phenomenon too. Like, 9nine is an idol group managed by Sony Music Entertainment Japan, Fairies and Super Girls and Cheeky Parade are created by Avex. But there are many, many idol projects and many musical groups that work in the genre.
The style is very big now. AKB48 is the most popular musical group in Japan.

Search for the expression "idol group" in Google News: [5] and you'll see the genre/style is notable.
Look at the 2013 yearly music charts: [6]. Songs by idol groups are at #1–4 (AKB48), #6 (Arashi), #7–16 (AKB48's sister groups, Nogizaka46, SMAP, etc.), #18–24 (Kanjani Eight, Kis-My-Ft2, etc.). Too many to list. It's easier to list the artists who aren't idols. --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 17:21, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)
And they are not only teenagers. Members of SMAP are in their 30s–40s. They started to perform when they were teenagers and they still continue as an idol group, still continue to work in the same genre. Mizuki Sano is 40 and he is famous as the oldest member of Johnny's Jr., which is basically a trainee project for kids. --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 18:16, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

I don't see any major problem with this article, apart from some awkward translation. --OC Ripper (razgovor) 18:36, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

If you fix the translation, I will fix the articles I created in Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian accordingly. :) (I've been waiting for someone to correct mistakes and even asked about it in the Croatian Wikipedia, but surprisingly no one corrected anything. So I guess I somehow managed not to make any grammar mistakes.) --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 18:47, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

Just one last comment from me. The translation was the least of my concerns. The real problem, for me at least, was that I failed to see what the article was about, and so I went over to en.wiki and checked it out there, but, alas, to no avail: I was, and remain, at a loss as to whether this is about TV shows, a social phenomenon, people who want to be celebrities, who are celebrities, and whether we should then have articles on Belgian Idols, Cambodian Idols or Danish Idols. On the other hand, I do not really care so much one way or the other, and I am sorry for being the cause of so much additional research, as evidenced above. This is certainly not the worst article on wikipedia and, anyway, I had no idea the issue was so... well, big in Japan.

Cheers, --Igor Windsor (razgovor) 19:01, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

It's about a social phenomenon. (A phenomenon of the Japanese entertainment industry.)
Yes, the article is unclear to those without prior knowledge. I bet the articles about "pop music", "rock music", etc. are somewhat unclear too... (Cause these are just cute words for some phenomenon which you can't clearly define.) I'm sorry. I would like to write a better article, but this is all I can do at the moment. :( I will try to correct the English language article cause it is terrible.
Maybe the article should be renamed to Idol (japanska pop kultura) or to Idol (japanski zabavljač) cause they are simply called "idols" in Japan. The word "Japanese" is added so that people see that the article is about the Japanese idols, the Japanese artists called "idols". --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 19:29, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)-Moscow Connection (razgovor) 19:29, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

I actually have to thank you for making me write that cause the additional research is needed for finally writing a better article in English. I'm not sure when I will make myself do it, but I've been thinking about doing it for ages. What I wrote will be useful, I even copy-pasted it to the English Wikipedia for future reference: Talk:Japanese idol#A better definition and a rewrite. --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 19:37, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

As I was involved with certain Japanese topics not so long ago, I just wanted to say a couple of things. Firstly, I am definitely cheering for keeping the article. This topic is rather specific and it might sound trivial to people not involved with contemporary Japanese culture, but I am certain that is has a specific and encyclopedic value within the context of Japanese culture. As far as the name of the article is concerned, I must admit that the current solution is not the happiest one. As per the earlier suggestion, I'm in favour of renaming the article to Idol (japanska pop kultura), as it would adequately describe the phenomenon and, at the same time, not cause any confusion for the reader. --Biljezim se sa štovanjem ,Poe 22:21, 24 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)

Let's rename it. (If it's not renamed in several days and there are no objections, I will rename it myself.)
(I want to thank everyone so much for talking to me in English. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to explain much.) --Moscow Connection (razgovor) 21:54, 27 april-травањ 2014 (CEST)