Razgovor:Karl Hopf

Ovo je stranica za razgovor za raspravu o poboljšanjima na članku Karl Hopf.

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Napravio je porodično stablo Kastriota

[1] Hopf was actually against Fallmerayer's theory of pan-slavisation of the Balkans and proved the fallacy of that theory with plenty of evidences. Therefore, he is the last who can be charged with "pro-Serbian bias" [2] - Euzen. (citat jednog komentara korisnika Euzen, koji može da bude interesantan.--Antidiskriminator 15:28, 30 rujan-септембар 2010 (CEST)

Možda je još interesantniji odgovor na istoj strani razgovora članka Skanderbeg gde drugi korisnik navodi grešku Karla Hopfa u čitanju istorijskih spisa:

Close, but no cigar. This has been pointed out before. Karl Hopf misread the documents. The original document where he got the premise from said "Branilo i Kastrioti" which was an agreement between Branilo and the Kastrioti family. He missed the i and thought it was Branilo Kastrioti This has been pointed out by Fan Noli in his PhD dissertation on Skanderbeg. He had just as much -- if not more -- access to the original documents as Karl Hopf. As given in a footnote from Harry Hodgkinson's book, Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero: The claim that Skanderbeg was a Slav was first made by a German who misread a document of 1368 in Serbian. Among the signatories were a Branilo (a Slav Christian name) of Vlora and a Castrioti of Kanina. By overlooking the single letter i (meaning and), he produced Branilo Castrioti as Scanderbeg's Serbian great grandfather.--Antidiskriminator 00:27, 1 oktobar-листопад 2010 (CEST)

na to je euzen odgovorio:

This is an encyclopedia for general readers and not an academic journal. If we embark on criticising major authors, then let us include that the famous "Mat" that is supposed to be the origin of John C. is a missinterpretation of "Aemathia". Barleti says :::"auctores gentis Castriote ex Aemathia nobili ortu fluxisse ..." (http://www.archive.org/stream/historiadeuitaet00barl#page/2/mode/2up down right). Aemathia is the old name of Macedonia and Epirus and Barleti knows history, latin and greek very well. When referring to albanian places uses the local albanian names (Croia, Dibres etc) and had no reason to rename the insignificant "Mat" to Aemathia. From Pliny: "Macedonia postea cl populorum, ... Aemathia antea dicta" (Georgica, lib.I), online here page 121. (I would like to know how Noli understand Aemathia). A possible Castrioti's origin from Macedonia brinks us closer to Greeks or Serbians and farther from Albanians (in geo-ethnological sense). But still does not give to J.C. any national identity. I think Fallmerayer took the chance of this missinterpretation to claim the Serbian origin of Castriote, because at J.Castrioti's time Mat was under Serbian control. The name Skander that the turcs gave to the child may weakly imply that they knew (or thought) that he may have something to do with Macedonia. --Euzen (talk) 08:09, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

• Now we are arguing principles and not history. Nevertheless, in order to put that Skanderbeg's origins are debatable, we must first find a valid scholar who accepts this. We can't put this in by ourselves since that would be WP:NOR. Furthermore, only Balkan editors would really care about Skanderbeg's origin and it seems like some completely omit details on his brilliance as a general and a leader of his people. This is the main reason why I have tried to expand topics relkated to his military career over the years, but I am often forced to defend his identity. And Marin Barleti is not the only biographer of Skanderbeg. The first was Demetrio Franco who wrote in 1480 and if you look at some of the articles which I have written, one can see that I have used his work extensively.
• Perhaps the best way to address why Hopf was misled would be by looking at who Skanderbeg's real grandfather was. Musachi says: You should know that the grandfather of Lord Scanderbeg was called Lord Paul Castriota. He ruled over no more than two villages, called Signa (Sina) and Gardi Ipostesi. To this Lord Paul was born Lord John Castriota who became Lord of Mat. I have not looked at the document myself, but scholars have and they have pointed out the mistake.
• And if you look again on page 308 of John Musachi's work which was copied by Karl Hopf (I provided the link before), you can see that he says that Skanderbeg's mother, Voisava, is a descendant of the Musachi family. By the way, the name Musachi is a Latinate corruption of Muzaka, a name still used by Albanians today (eg. Gjergji Muzaka). And Robert Elsie refers to him as an Albanian.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
  

Of course, Gaius, valid authors are already given, and Hodgkinson is not one of them. Read the obituary that Independent wrote about him (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-harry-hodgkinson-1440805.html) and you will understand that he was not a historian but a general writer who "fell in love with Albania", "had political contacts with the Albanian government", "worked for Shell's business intelligence" and UK Petroleum Advisory Committee (trying hard here to avoid some second thoughts on "oil and geo-politics"). During the Kosovo war he openly supported the Albanian part. He was high-rank member of the Anglo-Albanian Association, "the most determined and ideological support for Berisha anywhere in the world" (James Pettifer,Miranda Vickers (2007) The Albanian question: reshaping the Balkans, p. 46.). No question he knew well Albania, but he does not qualify as a neutral and expert on medieval history. Certainly he does not stand a chance against Prof. Karl Hopf. If you want more valid sources, I will soon offer references to the albanologist Johan Georg von Hahn who also supports the Serbian origin of Castrioti. Give me only few days to find the exact page (how I hate reading german!).--Euzen (talk) 15:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

It is true that Hodgkinson is not an historian, but his work has been vetted by David Abulafia, a renowned Cambridge professor known to the historical society as one of the best in the field of Mediterranean history. Maybe it is still not a definitive work of scholarship, but I provided more than one writer in my reply (Elsie and Noli) who both possessed doctorates in their respective fields. Also, just because he supports Albanian interests doesn't mean that his credibility should die. This is the main argument against Noel Malcolm, who is also a Cambridge alumni. I have yet to see a good historical argument against his premises.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)