Razgovor:Əhmədiyyə Cəbrayılov

Participation of Džebrajilov in French Resistance

Orijentolog, there is documents that were came from the French archive Caserne Bernadotte (mentioned on Baykov's article) that confirms the participation of Džebrajilov in French Resistance. There is also the article in French newspaper (Un pèlerinage d’un maquisard soviétique // Sud Ouest. 29/03/1975) that also mentioned his participation in Resistance. His war nicknames are also mentioned by French media[1]. So, please don't revert these sources as your action may be classified as vandalizam. --Interfase (razgovor) 15:09, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

M24 is a Russian source (not French), and alleged Sud Ouest article and document are from Museum House (again not French). --Orijentolog (razgovor) 17:36, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

This document which was mentioned by russian historian Aleksey Baykov[2] is not from Museum House, it was sent from Caserne Bernadotte archive on 28 July 2015 to the user Aserebrenik from Russian Wikipedia[3] (try to translate the quote that I put). And it confirms the participation of Džebrajilov (Akmed Michel) in Resistance. And who said that French article from Sud Ouest is alleged? So I reverted your revert. Because you don't read the sources, just remove them. Your acts are destructive. --Interfase (razgovor) 18:08, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

First, the article intro says "the official Soviet and Azerbaijani documentation attribute [him] major accomplishments to the French resistance movement" (a fact), and you're adding "French [people]" in between which is both grammatically and factually incorrect. Second, his role in the resistance movement is indeed disputed in any case, because the French Ministry doesn't have any info about him (you've tried to remove it), and even according to the Caserne Bernadotte document not so much details are known, and some are itself disputed (like Sweden as birthplace). This all means his participation in resistance can be listed (instead of removed) but with "alleged" notice. Third, there's no any confirmation of alleged Sud Ouest article, only a photo from Azerbaijani Museum House, which is without any doubt full of forgeries. --Orijentolog (razgovor) 19:53, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

Some information or details of his wartime biography can be disputed. But his participation in Resistnce already confirmed. And by the way, there is not only photo in French newspaper but also a text saying that maqui Jabrayilov was saved from a prison in Montauban while he was the prisoner of the Germans during the war. Later with the maquis of the region, he had to participate in the liberation of Montauban, Toulouse and Rodez. Second, "French Ministry doesn't have any info about him" is not correct. They just didn't find name "Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov". But as we know in archive documents he was known under "Akmed Michel" name. --Interfase (razgovor) 20:21, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

Unless we get an official confirmation from the French government (or the relevant ministry, for that matter), stating that their previous letter had been wrongfully written, I see no reason as to allow the addition of such information that have obviously been proven fraudulent --E.A.Poe 20:03, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

Edgar Allan Poe, actually the military archive of French Caserne Bernadotte while sent the document confirming the participation of Džebrajilov in Resistance sent also this accompanying letter with the signature of the chief of the French military archive, which was provided in Russian Wikipedia as well. So the French government officially confirmed the participation of Jabrayilov in resistance. --Interfase (razgovor) 20:21, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

You do understand that I speak and read French? The first document refers to a certain Michel (or Michael) Akmed, who had a French document (la matricule) and who, as is visible, participated in the war effort from 1944 to 1945; he was some sort of commander as far as I can understand the handwriting and was ultimately evacuated in December 1944. As far as the other document goes, it is only an official confirmation of the reception of a written request to extract the data for the said person, where it is stated that the sender will be informed of the result of the inquiry in a separate letter later on. Please stop making a fool of both yourself and this Wikipedia --E.A.Poe 21:17, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

So you just confirmed that we have official document that confirms the participation of Akhmed Michel in Resistance. It is not "certain Michel (or Michael) Akmed". Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov was known in France as Akmed Michel[4]. With that official letter the military Caserne Bernadotte archive also sent this document where you can see the negative of the photo of Jabrayilov (better version is here) where he is called Akmed Michel. There is also the documentary film about the visit of Jabrayilov to France in 1975 where he standing in front of his former comrades (also real participants of Resistance) calls himself (from 11:00) Akmed Michel. So, please restore the information about his participation in Resistance, because current version of article really makes this branch of Wikipedia fool. --Interfase (razgovor) 22:05, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

The first link is invalid. As for the negative and the attestation, it does seem to me that the small photograph was added later on; you can see that the stamps are different. Also, this does not explain the fact that the French Ministry of Interior has issued a formal statement that such a person was never a member of the French Resistance. If such records do appear or the Ministry revokes their initial statement, you are free submit those documents here and the article will be revised. Until then, please stop wasting our time. As far as I am concerned, this discussion is over until further evidence is provided --E.A.Poe 22:23, 23 juni 2018 (CEST)

"French Ministry of Interior has issued a formal statement that such a person was never a member of the French Resistance. " - this statement is incorrect. The statement was not about this person, it was about the name "Ahmadiyya Jabrayilov", but actually we know that in Resistance this person was known under Akmed Michel name which already was confirmed by several sources. As the fact, the document with his photo and information about him in Resistance is saved on French military archive. Continuing to ignore these facts you just waste our time and make the article to desinform your local readers. If it is one of the principles of this branch of Wikipedia, keep going on that way. --Interfase (razgovor) 05:22, 24 juni 2018 (CEST)